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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kyteler's Inn

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Seems like there is some uncontested coverage here Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 07:43, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Kyteler's Inn

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Kyteler's Inn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Business which does not meet the relevant notability criteria.

In terms of WP:ORG, there is no indication that this food and beverage business has been the "subject of significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject". Yes, there are the types of online reviews and self-published marketing materials that we might expect for a pub or other business of this type. But these are of the type that simply confirm that it exists rather than it is especially notable. The only "non-marketing/non-review" style source that I can find (of which the subject is the primary topic), is this 100-page summary - which appears to be a self-published work (doesn't have ISBN/etc), and which seems to have been written to coincide with it's 1980s opening/sale.

In terms of WP:GNG, the main claim to notability seems to be that the pub has been in operation on the site since the 14th century. And, while parts of the building (as much of the city of Kilkenny in which it sits) may be that old, the sources seem to suggest that the current building was "reconstructed" on the site in the mid-20th century, and so the connection with the original business is more marketing spiel than historically recorded fact.

The promotional overtones are also concerning. Guliolopez (talk) 13:08, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. Guliolopez (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Guliolopez (talk) 13:14, 30 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, tentatively. "Established in 1324" is a really major claim to notability. The building in the article's photo looks really old, too. This kind of place is usually going to turn out to be accepted as notable. Is it a listed building, in fact, or has that not been determined? I think it perhaps best to tag the article for more sources, and revisit in a year's time. --Doncram (talk) 23:30, 2 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Response Hiya. On those two points:
  • RE: "Established in 1324"? No. There was no inn on this site in 1324. And certainly not one associated with the current business. Per the talk page discussion, and the author's own removal of the claim subsequently, the "1324" date is almost certainly a folkloric throw-back or a marketing invention. While there may have been an inn on the site some time from the mid/late 15th century, the date "1324" has no historical basis. Otherwise that a building is old does not make the business that occupies it notable. (Kilkenny is a medieval city. Dozens/hundreds of the buildings in the city date from the 13th, 14th and 15th centuries. That doesn't afford notability to the businesses that occupy those buildings and assert connections (for marketing reasons) with its previous occupants).
  • RE: "Listed"?. Yes. Together with at least 3 other addresses on Kieran Street, the building occupied by this business is afforded "protected structure" status under Irish law. As are hundreds of buildings on adjoining streets (including almost the entirety of High Street, John Street, Parliament Street, Patrick Street, and Rose Inn Street). Many of the protected structures are individual private houses. Other structures on the list include a half-dozen stand-alone cast-iron post-boxes, a set of steps, a drinking trough, and the building currently occupied by the 'Pound City' discount store. In short, large swathes of the streetscape of Kilkenny is afforded protection. And while protected status may contribute to notability, it doesn't automatically confer it. And is not 'inherited' (such that the business occupying the protected structure becomes notable). Cheers. Guliolopez (talk) 09:52, 3 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No searching done, no evidence about this one at all. Give this vote its appropriate weight. --Doncram (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not informed at all, either. Give this vote its appropriate weight. --Doncram (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The brief description for the historic site "Kytelers Inn" on St. Kieran Street is:

Attached seven-bay single-storey over part-raised basement rubble stone house with dormer attic, c.1275, probably originally detached with single-bay single-storey return to east. Subsequently in use as inn, post-1449.

Sounds awfully darn significant to me. That is from KILKENNY CITY AND ENVIRONS RPS 2014, a PDF document.
I don't get the sarcasm above about post-boxes and so on. Is that merely rambling, entirely made up by the deletion nominator?!?? The other two listings on St. Kieran Street are:
  • Bollards Public House, 30-31 Kieran Street, "Terraced three-bay two-storey over basement house with dormer attic, built 1925, with pubfront to ground floor.
  • 43 St. Kieran Street, "Detached three-bay two-storey house with dormer attic, c.1825. Renovated, c.1925, with some openings to ground floor remodelled to accommodate commercial use."
The Kyteler's Inn seems more signicant than those. Is the sarcasm supposed to be in general, that there may exist silly historic site listings??? Whatever, Kyteler's Inn seems rather significant. --Doncram (talk) 23:13, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: You have got to be kidding me, to entirely dismiss the book entirely on the topic of Kytelers Inn's history?!? Titled "The Restoration of Kyteler's Inn and Its History", by Alice Kyteler, perhaps a descendant of Lady Alice Kyteler, born c.1280, associated with property? Maybe it doesn't have an ISBN, it is probably too erudite and specialized and legitimate, instead of being commercial! I think this is a pretty major indication that the local Kilkenny library archives will have it and a lot more. I haven't looked at other links in the deletion nomination, or otherwise searched. --Doncram (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Actually the article does not seem very promotional, is not bad at all. The article appears to me to be written by someone NOT affiliated with the business, just a fan drawing from available website and some personal knowledge is my guess, just like Jimbo Wales writing about some restaurant in South Africa he visited. Certainly many legitimate historic sites do have current establishments such as B&B's or whatever occupying them, and it is appropriate to give at least an external link to the business. And a history page from the business's website can provide some information, as this business's history page does. Right, we don't include telephone numbers. Yes, it is fine to say that the business has gotten some awards, like here. I don't doubt the accuracy of the business's reporting of the awards it has received; they would be lambasted if they made false claims on their webpage. So that indicates there exists other coverage, from the award-giving reviewers, and so on, too. I see no problem with any of this. --Doncram (talk) 23:38, 6 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply Hiya. Thanks again for your notes and comments. I wouldn't typically feel the need to reply, but as you phrased several of them in the form of questions, I am happy to reply:
  • RE: the sarcasm [..] merely rambling, entirely made up by the deletion nominator?!??. Was there a hint of (attempted) humour on my part? Yup. Definitely. You got me :) Was I making anything up? Nope. Emphatically not. I was pointing out that, in the protected structures listing (which I had linked above prior to your own helpful re-linking and copy/pasting) there are many different types of structures listed. Some substantial. Some not. Is the building (in which the subject of this article plies its trade) more significant than some of the others in the listing? Yes. It certainly is. Certainly more significant than the post-boxes and early 20th century houses we've linked to. But, does its age/status confer notability on the business which currently occupies the building? Nope. I would contend that it does not. Which is why I opened this AfD discussion. To see if others agreed.
  • RE: perhaps a descendant of Lady Alice Kyteler, born c.1280, associated with property?. There is no indication that Alice Kyteler had any association with the business that is the subject of the article. Rather, it is interesting to me that the article on Alice Kyteler, first written in 2005, doesn't make (and has never made) any mention of her being an inn-keeper. Or having an association with the current business. Or the building it occupies. That's kinda funny I'd say? (Although perhaps in a different way).
  • RE: Comments on other editors contributions. Given that I was perhaps attempting a little humour (and can therefore perhaps accept some rebuke for my "rambling" "sarcasm"), I do not think it is entirely necessary for the notes from other contributors to be dismissed or diminished. As has been done. Typically, in my experience, AfD closers are more than capable of applying "appropriate weight" to contributions. Which, FYI, are not "votes".
  • RE: I haven't looked at other links in the deletion nomination, or otherwise searched. Maybe have a quick look when you get a chance. As you might note that those news articles suggest that the modern business is just that. A modern business. It will also make your suggestion (that the notes from other contributors should be given less/due weight because they haven't apparently done enough reading/searching) feel a little less like the pot calling the kettle names.
  • RE: awfully darn significant to me. Finally, and I'm sure this is just a perspective thing, but where I'm from (not too far from the building in question), everything is old :) Which is why the age of the building occupied by a business wouldn't seem enough to me. And why I looked for other indications of notability. Like books and the like. Of which the subject might be the main topic. And couldn't find any. Other than the pamphlet created by the people who bought/built the business. Otherwise, I guess, it's just a personal perspective. Which is probably based on what you/I are used to. Lots of stuff here is old. Including the post boxes :) And the pubs :) Not all of 'em warranting an article :) [Oh dear, I'm engaging in rambling sarcasm again, so I better stop now :) ] All the best.... Guliolopez (talk) 00:27, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep I am seeing a regular drumbeat of travel articles discussing the food, music and ambiance at this in papers from Australia, Canada and the U.S. in addition to Britain and Ireland (all the places the Irish emigrants went.) The Irish Times accepts the 1324 date and the witch, and covers it as a thriving pub and restaurant for sale in 1975. Added a descriptive bit from the NYTimes. If someone is still unpersuaded, ping me to come back and l comb more archives. But I do think the page is now well enough sourced to keep. E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Query. "The Irish Times accepts the 1324 date and the witch". That's interesting. Can I ask where/when it does this? I ask as, per the above and the Alice Kyteler article, while sources which discuss the pub link it to Kyteler, none of the sources which discuss Kyteler link her to the pub. Or any pub. For example, in the many 'contemporary' historical, academic, and biographical texts which discuss Kyteler, none seem to refer to her as an inn-keeper. The only more modern source (of which Kytler is a major subject), that I can find and which makes a connection, simply asserts that "Today there is even a public house in the town which bears the name The Kyteler Inn and tourist companies sometimes include Kilkenny on their routes as a 'witch town'." Which would seem to demonstrate more of an apocryphal association rather than a historical one. My other issue is that the protected structure listing specifically notes that the place didn't become an inn until at least the 15th century. At least 100 years after Kyteler's death. Making the whole "Kyteler connection" at best questionable. So, if we are asserting notability on the basis of a connection to a historical figure, then I'm not seeing it (not least for INHERITORG reasons). Or, if we are asserting notability on the basis of age, then I'm not seeing that as reason enough. Or, if we are asserting notability on the basis of coverage in travel reviews and the like, then that just doesn't seem weighty enough. That being said, if you can help with sources that confirm, establish or "accept" a connection with Kyteler, then perhaps the best thing to do is to verify those sources, and consider a merge/redirect. Guliolopez (talk) 00:04, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I do wish you would have read the page before commenting. For example, revised the text so that it is now sourced to show the the witch is said to have lived in a house on this site, that there is a surviving medieval foundation/lower floor, and that it is recorded as an inn at a specific date in the 1600s. As I said, I think it clearly passes [WP:SIGCOV]]. Although, of course, it can be improved. And, yeah, somebody is running a restaurant pub there and, yeah, the page was started by a new account editing on tourist attractions. Could it be PROMO - yes. Do sources support notability - yes.E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:55, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please look at the page, where, as I said, I have added sources. The Irish Times story is behind a paywall, and is an image, so I cannot copypaste the text. (I was being facetious, I suspect the Times was too when they described her as a witch.) Typing out some snippets: "Kytelers Inn ) pictured below) once the home of the medieval witch Dane Alice Kyteller..." and "The interesting stone building originating form 1324". There is enough here to establish notability. But I suspect that better searching would discover reliable sources like official historical surveys, that date the lower part of the building reliably. A simple gBooks search Kyteler's Inn brings up a number of sources (not including guidebooks) on this building. E.M.Gregory (talk) 00:49, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. I've since also addressed some of the "better source" tagging requests myself. Among other copyedits. While I'm still not entirely convinced on the date or notability (to the extent that I would retract/self-close this AfD), I am more than happy to accept the resulting consensus. Which is, of course, the purpose of these things. To establish a consensus. And to act (or otherwise) on it. And is, of course, why I opened this thread in the first place. To follow-on from the PROD tag which another editor had added. And to see what others thought. Thanks again for your own thoughts/etc. Have a good one! Guliolopez (talk) 01:14, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note to closing editor. Upgrading page now please don't close it until I finish. thanks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:11, 8 May 2019 (UTC) Finished, thanks.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:29, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, as we would do with any other important building on a national heritage list. If it's reputed to be the oldest pub building in the town, that certainly makes it more important than the occasional bench or trough. The nomination is flawed from the start, because even when it was nominated the article was about the building, not a business. Sionk (talk) 07:17, 8 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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